posted March 28, 2001 12:15 PM                          

This is something that I've been practicing for a little while now. I believe you should train like you'll fight. Target shooting for accuracy and bench rest shooting for testing is all good for fun and getting comfortable with where a weapon is hitting and sighting in and such. I still enjoy target shooting as well.

In a real situation however, my thought is that if you take the time to aim . . . your dead. This causes me to believe that simply target shooting with a carry weapon gives me a false sence of ability.

Now I'm not saying that "homy shud whip out his piece" and hold it sideways gang banger style while emptying the mag. This is also a good recipe for death.

Maybe some of you that have lived through a gun battle or had "sound" training can enlighten me. I really am seeking knowledge here. I don't think you can expect to take the time to aquire a good sight picture and concentrate on your breathing and trigger pull when in a life threatening situation. I would have to guess that most gun battles are over in a few seconds.

If I do have to face this situation I'd like to be prepared as well as can be. I believe this requires some point shooting practice at every range session with my carry gun or guns.

I usually practice on empty milk jugs from approx 20 ft. on the ground. They should probably be on some sort of pole at chest hight but I have not tried this yet because I like to be able to see where I hit when I miss the jug. I practice double taps and multiple targets. Unfortunately it will take some time to get proficient.

On one hand, it's a HUGE waste of $$ and ammo. On the other hand, it's addicting, fun and if it helps you gain a skill that can help to save your life . . . . you be the judge.

Thanx in advance.
Give me your input!

posted March 28, 2001 01:36 PM                          

I use "target-focussed" shooting to improve my "fighting" skills. At first glance, this may appear to be point-shooting, but I believe there is a subtle difference. In point-shooting, you don't aim the gun, you "point" it in the direction of the target. Often the gun will not be in your line of sight and you depend on "muscle-memory" to point the gun correctly. I believe it takes considerable practice to be able to hit the target consistently (at various ranges and orientations) using the point-shooting method.

In target-focussed shooting, I concentrate only on the target; i.e. I keep my eyes on the target at all times. Starting from the low ready or from a holster, I raise the gun until it comes within my field of view and is "on the target", then Bang. Note that I'm not using the sights, but I'm using the shape of the gun to insure the gun is generally aligned with the target, which I think is different from point-shooting.

For distance, I work at 1, 3, and 5 yards.

At 1 yard (contact range), and drawing from a holster, I keep the gun low (about waist high) this essentially breaks down to one-hand shooting from the hip, since (at this range) there would not be time to raise the gun much. I also make an effort to bring the gun to the center of my body (rather than off my right hip) for better target alignment.

At 3 yards, I use a two-hand grip and raise the gun to about the center of my chest, but not at full extension. This brings the gun into my line of sight, but not extended all the way to avoid a 'grab'. When I can see the gun (without taking my eyes off the target) I pull the trigger.

At 5 yards, again with a two-hand grip, I raise the gun to about chin height and fire. Beyond 5-7 yards, I raise to eye level and use the sights. Although shooting beyond 5 yards with a P32 is pushing the limits I think.

The whole idea is to stay focussed on the target and use the shape of the gun to aim, rather than the sights. I haven't measured the time, but this feels pretty fast to me. It also produces acceptable accuracy without a lot of practice.

For targets, I always use a cardboard silhouette (like an IPSC or IDPA target). To help my target focus and measure my hits, I staple a standard sheet of paper (8x11) over the center of the target. Any hit on the paper is a good hit. Hits off the paper still count, just not as much. Starting with several dry-fire sessions at home, it only took a couple of range trips to get consistently good hits. It also works well in dim light.

Finally, after you get comfortable with it, you can move up to multiple targets at 3-7 yards.

If you can get to a high quality training class...GO! If you can't, concentrate on basic skills at close range. This is the most likely type of encounter.

------------------
My other gun is a GLOCK!

posted March 28, 2001 02:10 PM                          

Thats a hell of a good answer. I couldn't have said it any better.
I made the mistake of target shooting at about 20-25 ft with a P32.What a mistake.It's not made for that.It's about as accurate as my Colt Agent 38 special.And that aint very.
So don't be dissapointed when shooting at 25 feet.
My advise is to shoot at distances of 10 feet or less and don't point,bring it up to chest level and let her rip. And hope it fires right Cruzer.

posted March 28, 2001 02:44 PM                          

Bwana, I would love to take a class but can't really afford it right now. I'll have to start saving up.

K-Raptor, Excellent response! OK, I'm using the wrong terminology then. What I'm currently doing fit's your description of "target-focused" shooting. Drawing from the hip, going to a two handed grip and bringing the gun up to my line of sight. I'm just not using the sights.

Sounds like you have some great training ideas! I think I'll try some of them. I like the point of training for different distance encounters and the types of positions to hold.

I think I will start looking into what training is available in my area. Have ya'll traveled to a specific training center or can good training be had locally? I probably couldn't afford to travel elsewhere, I'm just curious.

posted March 28, 2001 03:03 PM                          

I'll try to remember.

posted March 29, 2001 01:47 PM                          

------------------
My other gun is a GLOCK!

posted May 29, 2001 04:37 PM                       

I think that, if you train on milk jugs on the ground, your "muscle memory" will have you shooting (missing) ankles in an emergency.

posted May 30, 2001 01:51 AM                       

That being said; the learning curve and discplined training for mastering such skills, is more advanced than instinctive point shooting. I have a video in which Bill Wilson shows a hostage type drill in which he draws and shoots the "bad guy" in between the eye's in the blink of an eye. It's downright impressive what skills years of practice can bring. He said he never touched the trigger till he confirmed a perfect sight picture. I swear most wouldn't believe it from watching the video. It was one quick fluid motion.

However, as I tried my best to shoot this way with the P32, the front sight is inadequate to say the least. I had my gunsmith put a shotgun bead in the wallowed out spot behind the front sight. Now my front sight is 100 times faster to find than the original. Works just like the military bar dot system, and the bead is even the same size as the "bar" rear sight, as viewed in normal sighting. I later saw on this board the ashely sights. I like mine better, as the Ashely looks like it would snag on everything. My bead has never snagged on anything (and cost only $15.....installed!).

posted June 10, 2001 10:36 PM                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by JasonD:
<snip> but then came along a fellow named Mr. Weaver. He was poked fun at cause unlike most shooters of the day, he took the "time" not only to take a stance and put both hands on the gun, but to align the sights and aim! Well they stopped laughing pretty soon, cause not only were his shots better placed, his times were better also. Wasn't long and everyone was using the "Weaver stance" and the sights just so that they could stay competitive. <snip>

---

The Weaver stance works fine as long as the target isn't shooting back at you. However, under extreme stress, Weaver stance tends to break down as the body loses fine motor control. Read Applegates discussion of this in my previous post. The FBI studied videotapes of actual police shootings, all were trained in Weaver stance, but when the stuff hit the fan, NONE of them used it. Point shooting is designed to take advantage of what your body will involuntarily do under extreme stress.